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The Government has announced it will build light rail starting in 2014 from Circular Quay to Randwick. What do you think of the proposed route?

over 4 years ago

NSW Government map of light rail route from Circular Quay to Randwick

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eee almost 3 years ago
A definitely need to be extended to Maroubra junction as the cut in bus services because of the light rail to kingsford and randwick and etc would disrupt the services to maroubra junction.
peeela about 3 years ago
I agree with the comments calling for more detail about how this affects daily bus commutes on the 372, 373, 374 bus routes. Where is the easy-to-understand detail of this proposal?
Tarandoc over 4 years ago
All I can say is that is a good start! Bring it on!I will definitely use it.Coogee beach is such a huge trip generator that it really should keep going from POW Hospital down another km to Coogee.Meanwhile, extending down Anzac Pde to (at least) Maroubra Jn is very do-able.I hope that by the time it is up and running fare reform will have occurred and that Sydney will have a fare system something akin to Melbourne's where there is no penalty for changing from one mode to another. maybe our bureaucrats need a trip to our southern cousins to see how it is done.
jasonm23 over 4 years ago
I second the extra KM to Coogee, and I also think we should have the route (at least) extended to Maroubra Jn, if not futher. From La Perouse all the way to Kensington it's a real hike to get up to the city and back, this is a sorely needed upgrade to our public transport.
brainwavze over 4 years ago
Running the light rail down to the beach is a bad idea. The Coogee beach area is already very busy and crowded, particularly on Saturday night. A light rail pumping more people into this area will seriously degrade the amenity of the area, particularly on Friday and Saturday nights.The proposed route seems sufficient.
jasonm23 over 4 years ago
I would agree running it to the beach is a bad idea, not to mention the disruption to traffic and business during construction. If there is a plausible route toward the top of Coogee bay road, west of Woolworths, it may be beneficial, not only in bringing people in via a different route, but getting them out too.To be fair, I can't see how there's a logistically viable way to do this, regardless of the "too many people" argument.Rolling the route further south down the Anzac Parade could be a benefit to commuters in these suburbs, although the road may not be practical / too congested already.
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
The trip from Coogee to Town Hall is going to take longer on the tram than the bus. Please don't assume that just because something runs on rails it will be fast. The tram is going to be completely at-grade running on surface roads causing traffic chaos. Buses aren't great but at least they're quicker than the proposed light rail system.
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
Public transport is supposed to provide faster, less congested travel solutions - this proposal does neither. The travel times are longer than the current bus system and the Gov's own web site proudly boasts its capacity AS LESS THAN THE BUSES it will replace - going slower and costing more. it also adds to the congestion by taking out 4 lanes of road where there is a stop - so at Anzac Pde at UNSW you lose 7m for the two tram lines and 7-8m for the two platforms, you also lose ALL PARKING and ALL Turning bays on Anzac Parade. Unless you also lose all car parking the entire length of Anzac Parade from Kensington to Kingsford then there can only be one traffic lane compared with the current two. Great result -more congestion - slower travel times -more expense (having to change from bus to tram & pay two separate fares - admitted in the FAQ section on NSW site)
Oneway over 4 years ago
I was raised in Calgary Canada where, like Sydney, they had an extensive street care (tram) network. Like Sydney they dismantled it, coverted to buses them recently (in the 90's) converted to light rail. The system works beautifully, is extensivelly used and the city keeps expanding it.
SoniaK over 4 years ago
I don't like it. It will be travelling on the most congested part of Anzac Pde where the ED exit to Randwick causes traffic jams near Moore Park. If you look at the picture above there is only one lane remaining for inbound and outbound city travel to accommodate buses, cars and bikes. It stops in Kingsford so doesn't help anyone south of Kingsford. Will I still be able to catch a bus all the way to the city from Malabar or will I have to get off at Kingsford to get on the light rail? Even an extension to Maroubra does not help. It should be extended to La Perouse.
robbibt over 4 years ago
I may be corrected, but I am fairly certain the current plan runs the light rail down the separate additional bus lanes which run parallel first with Alison Road along the Centennial Parklands and then with Anzac Parade until the end of Moore Park. They were the original route Sydney's southern trams ran along before they were removed, and now simply provide an express lane for the 37X buses which would be largely replaced by light rail anyhow. Light rail running through there would be almost entirely independent to the flow of traffic on Anzac Parade, and shouldn't cause any significant additional congestion at all.
Brian over 4 years ago
It is not clear from the map provided, but I understand the line will travel up Devonshire St and cross over Sth Dowling S and Anzac Pde on viaducts and use the existing bus roadway, so there should be no traffic interference. Not sure how it will get across Moore Park near the school though.
robbibt over 4 years ago
It's a fantastic start, but I would strongly support a further extension to Maroubra Junction. South of Kingsford Anzac Parade widens significantly to include a wide median strip where the old tramlines once ran. It would be perfect for extending the tracks even further, all while causing minimal traffic interference both during construction and after completion.
Brian over 4 years ago
The two lines should be joined together at the bottom of Avoca St. This would service two major high schools and any future redevelopment of the Army land.
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
It should be extended to Maroubra, taking advantage of the very wide median south of the Kingsford roundabout. Between the Kingsford roundabout and the intersection of Alison Road and Anzac Pde the line has to be put in a cut and cover tunnel (~2.5 kms) as this part of Anzac parade is congested already and there is no space in the medians for trams. Once it gets to Alison the tram tracks can be laid on the existing bus road that runs parallel to Anzac Pde. Yes a cut and cover tunnel would be expensive (at least $100 million per kilometre) but it's not going to be quite a short tunnel and I think it is feasible given the budget of $1.6 billion.
Blake7 over 4 years ago
I am delighted! I remember the old trams and travelling on the in my youth.
Brian over 4 years ago
I hope that readers here will understand that the modern system proposed has very little in common with the old trams of our youth.
Kenso over 4 years ago
I think it is a good idea. I was born in Berlin and we have a great tram system there that compliments the rest of our public transport, at least in the eastern part of town.To make the Light Rail have a greater impact it should be extended down to Coogee and to Maroubra Junction. Especially the Coogee extension would find great uptake.The questions I share with SoniaK is how will the network work in conjunction with the buses and and are there any studies of what the impact on non-public traffic will be in an already congested corridor? This is particularly the case for special events around Moore Park.
Brian over 4 years ago
The line appears to use Devonshire St, which is currently not subject to congestion, and cross Dowling St and Anzac Pde on bridges or private rights of way. So the impact will be considerably less than buses now suffer/create.
Marika over 4 years ago
As a resident of Coogee i would hate to see light rail down to the beach as this would mean public land or greenspace would be needed from the foreshore to accommodate a station.( with all the associated negatives) There is no demand for the train line to continue to the beach in fact I think residents would rally against it.
Brian over 4 years ago
The light rail (be honest and call it a "tram") does not need a station, just a low level platform to allow stepless boarding.Such a terminus could be created in Havelock Ave with the trams utilising Carr St and the former line under Brook St. This only a short walk from the beach, and will not impact on the shopping strips or major traffic roads. It might even be possible to have the terminus in Arden St opposite the Holiday Inn.
what almost 4 years ago
I think the people in Coogee are "too precious" for light rail. Much as Bondi Beach was for the extension of the eastern suburbs railway.Instead, we will have the "joy" of transferring between tram and bus to complete our journeys.
R-L over 3 years ago
We should not have to endure that kind of "joy". We should be able to sit comfortably on a perfectly adequate bus, all the way from circular quay to coogee beach, without having to transfer to/from the proposed light rail.
kiffoke over 4 years ago
I think it's a waste of money and resources. It will use the same roadspace as the existing buses, but less efficiently as taxis and motorbikes won't be able to share the same lanes. It still needs to stop at all the same traffic lights and doesn't have a significantly larger carrying capacity than a few large buses. I imagine that the time it will take will be the same, and the amount of passengers waiting at the stops will be the same, and no express options are possible as with the existing bus network. I would have hoped that the heavy rail from Bondi Junction would have been extended, and would prefer to see the budget for this improvement saved until there was enough for a proper heavy rail system from Bondi to Maroubra.
jasonm23 over 4 years ago
Ideally it should be an underground metro, but I'm sure that budget isn't available.
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
Or a compromise perhaps? Many cities have light rail systems that run above ground primarily but also have underground sections.
ash over 4 years ago
Regarding the traffic lights ... usually they can be adjusted to when a tram comes it switches quicker to green.
StuartWright over 4 years ago
I agree it should go south to Maroubra Junction and stops aren't set in cement the can be moved just like bus stops according to demand/impact.
Richie over 4 years ago
I am strongly opposed to expansion of light rail. Light rail is inferior to buses in every way - speed, capacity, flexibility and cost. Specifically, a bus network can provide a convenient service to a much larger catchment area, cater to more destinations, adapt more easily to peaks in demand (e.g. with express services), cause less disruption of other traffic, and do not require overhead wires or stops in the middle of the road. Bus routes can also adapt over time to changing demand patterns by adding new routes. Artists impressions of future light rail systems always show a couple of cars traveling freely in the vacant lane but Anzac Parade is highly congested and adding trams will make this worse. Meanwhile light rail would do little to reduce traffic because it would not serve the majority of commuters, who would continue to rely on buses and cars or else be forced to interchange.If we spent even a fraction of the cost of this proposed light rail system on upgrading the existing bus network we could all be riding to work in air conditioned comfort without having to walk miles to a light rail stop and facing an even more congested road.
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
Light rail can be a lot better than buses, but looking at the plans for Sydney they seem to be focused on putting an at-grade system in that will, as you said, worsen congestion on Anzac Parade. If you look at the types of light rail systems that are being introduced in other modern cities most of them are nothing like what we think of as "trams" - these systems are mainly separated from traffic and use tunnels and above ground sections to avoid areas of high congestion and reduce disruption to other traffic. By the looks of it we're not going to be getting an effective modern system though: the proposed system's going to be run entirely on surface roads and take away traffic lanes in congested areas and be stopping almost as frequently as the current non-express buses leading to a crawling 24 minute commute from UNSW to Central. The current X94, X99, X96 and X92 bus routes can get to the city from Maroubra in a shorter period of time than this. Pathetic.
immanuel_aj almost 4 years ago
But the bus routes that you've mentioned don't go to Central directly, they go up to Circular Quay first. I don't think the trams would replace those routes at all, but let people get to Central directly through the congested areas more quickly.Hopefully the trams can run along the bus lanes on Anzac Parade. I don't see why they can't share those with the buses. Definitely not in the center of the road. Otherwise, it'd be like Melbourne where when a tram stops to let people down the traffic stops to let them cross the road. :s
cicc over 4 years ago
I think it is a fantastic idea, it would relieve the trafic congestion on Anzac Parade.....BUT Randwick Council can not give up on the local traffic management, as you know Houston road has a large volume of traffic (rat runners) avoiding Anzac parade and the Kingsford roundabout and yes the RTA is also a culprit as buses use Houston Road all day everyday by turning into Houston Road from Day Avenue to avoid the kingsford roundabout . By introducing Light rail (which is great) Council and RTA need to relieve the traffic volumes on Houston Road by restricting access. I can not tell you how to achieve this but I am sure there are better brains than mine to come up with a solution and as ratepayers we would expect our elected representatives to look after our interests.
concerned Local about 4 years ago
It's selfish people like you that have caused the traffic congestion we have now. People moving around a suburb are forced on to main roads because many secondary roads have been blocked due to complaints of people not wanting traffic in their streets. If you bought a house on a main Rd then you have to live with the traffic not expect the majority of people to be inconvenienced so you can boost your property value. Every road that is blocked puts more pressure on already overloaded main roads which should be used by people who are passing through the suburb. by blocking off secondary main roads like Huston Rd you force all traffic on to the main road and causing even more pollution and congestion. Road closures have to stop and blocked roads should be reopened to take the pressure off main roads. 20 years ago we had far more road area than we have today and almost no traffic congestion.I'm in favour of the tram system if it serves the public by increasing the amount of transport to and from the city but not if it's just to change the mode of transport from cars and buses because it will only cause more congestion including congestion in public transport. The government keeps increasing population density but dose not provide the infrastructure to allow it to function.
cicc about 4 years ago
You are so wrong, firstly do not categorize me as selfish or as a new comer to the area... I have lived in this street for over forty years and in the area for fifty five years - which might be longer than you.Secondly, I know exactly what I bought into and I have no intention of selling or moving even though I have been offered ridiculousness sums of money to do so, but I do expect a quality of life and to be able to enjoy my place of residence. I accept local traffic but not traffic that use not only my street but possibly yours as a convenient rat run, I am simply saying that council should think about the added traffic that will be generated and what to do about it. If you live in the area you know the problems that we locals encounter ever day, look at Eastern Avenue, imagine what life will be like there.Please don't misunderstand me I am not against the Light rail proposal but it has to be done properly to everyone advantage and with thought and proper traffic management.
keithyb over 4 years ago
Its a great idea.Clearly it needs to be expanded to Maroubra Jn, possibly (although more expensive) Coogee.The estimated journey times need to be looked at - I believe your looking at almost 50 minutes to get from Randwick to Circular Quay - which is longer than it takes to cycle or on a bus. You'll need to get the City to reduce this times, with with express trams (aka X70?) or an alternative route that bypasses Central, in order to have worthwhile take up.Thanks for giving residents the chance to give feedback.
concerned Local about 4 years ago
The Maroubra growth corridor is growing much faster than Coogee with hundreds of new units being built at Malabar, and more in Matraville and Randwick it seems Coogee has a lower priority other than getting people to an already crowed beach.
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
There's no such thing as an "express tram" because there's going to be only two tracks so there's no way to get ahead of a non-express tram stopping ahead of it.
mw2 over 4 years ago
I personnally will not use it under the current plan. I live in Randwick and work in the city. The journey time via the proposed tram is in the region of 50 mins. The current bus options take considerable less time and i can in fact walk (at a decent pace) faster than this time. A key comparison is to look at the patronage of the 374 v the 373 bus where you will see less people appear to want to travel via central.The tram must be planned so that journey times are materially less than that of the bus (or walking for that matter)!Its a good thought but it sounds like Government do not want to make the hard calls such as how the tram will be given priority access (eg dedicated lanes). Rather they just assume to put it on the existing roads (and the Moore Park bus lane - which in itself is not that much quicker than the road alternative).
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
Absolutely, the only people that will benefit from the current plan are people travelling to/from UNSW and the SCG during events. For everyone else the tram will be a slower although perhaps more comfortable journey.
immanuel_aj almost 4 years ago
So that means that the students and staff of UNSW will get the most benefit of the trams?
what almost 4 years ago
Yes, but routing the 374 & 376 at least allowed those people leaving east/south of Randwick Junction to access Central, Haymarket etc. Before, it was necessary to change to a 372 bus to reach this part of Sydney. I hate the way on outbound journeys from the City that the 374/376 wind around to Eddy Avenue, but even with this loop and back up Albion Street is quicker than the 372 trudging along Cleveland Street.
ChrisTisdell over 4 years ago
Residents from Kensington, Kingsford and Daceyville will enjoy significant transport benefits from the branch of the line that runs along Anzac Pde to the Kingsford Nineways. I applaud Randwick Council for supporting the light rail scheme."Kingsford was originally intended to be the terminus of the Eastern Suburbs railway line, but as a cost-cutting measure the line was terminated at Bondi Junction in 1979." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsford,_New_South_WalesI often joke with my family that Kingsford will get its railway station around the same time as Sydney gets its second airport....
SoniaK over 4 years ago
I am really concerned about the proposed light rail. I think Randwick council only seems to be concerned about commuters to the uni, to sporting events and to the races. I catch a bus every day to and from the city from Matraville along Anzac pde during peak hour traffic, approximately 480 times in one year during peak hour. Sporting events or races only occur occasionally during the year and most of the time on the weekend or in offpeak. The bus service has always been excellent and I am really concerned on how the light rail will impact on bus services that go further south of Kingsford. People who travel from the western, northern or southern regions by car to uni most probably will not change their habits as they will still have to catch a train to the city and then change to light rail. This is no different to the options they have now. Why would they stop driving.
Brian over 4 years ago
Have you ever seen the queues of students waiting to get a bus from Central to UNSW in the mornings? It often starts in the middle of Eddy Ave, and ends way down Pitt St. Have you ever tried to catch a bus from Kensington to the city in the afternoon? Very difficult as the buses are full from UNSW. Trams will reduce the number of buses, as they have 3 to 4 times the capacity. Bus services from south of Kingsford will benefit from connections to the tram service which will avoid major traffic pinch spots.
SoniaK over 4 years ago
Good point thanks. I am not really sure how my bus services will operate but if all of the buses south of Kingsford terminate at Kingsford and then we all have to get on the light rail I imagine by the time the light rail gets to Kensington it will be full anyway and you still won't be able to get on. Every bus in peak hour is nearly full by the time I get to Kingsford. Your afternoon buses are probably full from high density population in Maroubra, Kingsford and now Little Bay plus uni students. If the south eastern bus services continue all the way to the city then you will be right.
ben1680 over 4 years ago
I don't think this is a good idea at all. It seems like a half baked solution and stopgap measure only. It is better to invest in undergrond rail extension from Bondi, as it will definitely reduced the congestion and also save money in the long run. The current bus network serves randwick, maroubra, and kingsford well enough at the moment (not in the long run though, hence the need for underground rail network).Not to mention ugly electrical and suspension cable hanging everywhere, ruining Sydney beautiful skyline. Don't make Sydney sky as messy as Melbourne city, where you can't even enjoy the sky or take a photo of it's great architecture without all those cable ruining your picture...
ACC over 4 years ago
In the picture above the trams utilises the outside lane when travelling in both directions. Where will the commuters alight? In the centre? If so there will need to be sufficient space to handle the number of travellers alighting from the tram. At UNSW this could be several dozen at a time during peak periods. If the stops are to be located at destinations other than crossroads there would have to be additional pedestrian crossings built to enable the passengers to get to the footpath. In the illustration there is insufficient space for more than a couple or so, therefore therefore a larger area will have to be dedicated.If on the other hand the roadway is used to enable passengers to disembark traffic will be brought to a halt.I trust they give this idea more consideration than the proposal to build on-off ramps at Gardeners Road on Southern Cross Drive.
jshervington1 over 4 years ago
Congratulations first of all to our Randwick City Council (RCC) who took the initiative of putting $100,000 toward a feasibility study and which is now the basis for the State Government's decision to begin the light rail project in 2014 from Central Station to Kingsford. Money well spent, Councillors!I also agree with RCC's proposal to put money in its draft 2013-2014 budget toward another feasibility study for a further extension of light rail from Kingford to Maroubra Junction. This is to where the old tram system once ran. And the land along the old tram tracks to Maroubra Junction is still available. Thereby eliminating a major state government cost factor!Currently numerous buses feed into and through this Junction during day and night. For buses there is a bottleneck here in the Junction where it seems that no more bus services can be added for the growing population of this locality and of other localities along the way from La Perouse. High rise development already underway in the Junction itself will dramatically increase the population of this Town Centre with many of its residents opting for public transport over the ownership of cars. Passagers from the above feeder buses to the Junction could transfer to the new light rail heading directly to Central Station and its intervening stops. With careful planning, a safer mix between buses, cars and pedestrians would eventually come to Maroubra Junction, where one State Road (Anzac Parade) and one Regional Road (Maroubra Road) intersect - both outside the jurisdiction of RCC. This intersection is the third most accident prone intersection in the Maroubra Electorate. And, apparently, ugly green barricades to fence in pedestrians along both these roads at the Junction are an inadequate solution.So thank you RCC for your foresight in considering the future transport needs of our local government area.
SoniaK over 4 years ago
I think it is money spent by people who do not actually use public transport and most likely drive to and from Randwick council everyday. Where the old tram system once ran is now full of car parks between Kingsford and Maroubra. The old tram system operated when there were not thousands of cars on the road, there were not hundreds of bicycles on the road. This plan suggests that someone travelling from any area south of Kingsford heading to Martin Place would catch a bus to Kingsford transfer to the light rail, with thousands of other people, get off at Central then transfer to some other type of transport to get to Martin Place. A simple trip today where the bus goes straight to the city becomes a trip on 3 modes of public transport.
Eastman over 4 years ago
Not before time. With added branch lines off Anzac Pde to each of the beaches and extended to La Perouse it will be a wonderful contribution to our amenity. To work well and improve the aesthetics it needs to be powered from underneath, not with overhead wires; and cars need to be diverted elsewhere with the lanes reduced on Anzac Pde. and the buses be confined to a priority lane without being impeded by cars and Bicycles all the way to Oxford St at least. And why not complete the loop from PWH to Kingsford. Well done. And I only hope this initiative like the others in the Master plan are followed through and completed. Unlike poor record of the previous incompetent and corrupt Government.
mjog over 4 years ago
There have already been suggestions that “constructing (light) railway lines leads to over-crowded beaches”, however this argument is not correct. The same argument was trotted out to stop the rest of the Eastern Suburbs line being built, and it is as false now as it was then. The only result of stopping the Eastern Suburbs was terrible traffic congestion, not less people on Bondi Beach.Why? Because improving public transport does not encourage people to anything they would not have already done already. If someone wants to go to the beach they will do so, regardless of the quality of the public transport. Likewise, if someone does not want to go to the beach, having light rail is not going to change their mind. Have you ever heard anyone say “Oh I never went to the beach, but when they built a tram/train I go all the time”? No, of course not.Were the tram built to Coogee or other beaches, you would find less traffic and parking congestion due to fewer cars and buses on the road, not more people going to the beach. The reduction in cars means less noise, less fumes, less reckless driving late at night. It's a win-win-win, with no downside in sight.
freespeech over 4 years ago
I don't think it will be successfully, the traffic will be much worse.
Mickey over 4 years ago
Love the idea!! But have to agree with others that it has to go all the way to Maroubra. Maroubra Junction is becoming a metropolis, and while not opposed to this, I am opposed to building high density residential development without appropriate transport infrastructure - just look at the joke that is Victoria Park!Keep up the good work - more light rail - just don't half-bake it. There is a ready-made corridor along Anzac Pde between Kingsford and Maroubra!!
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
Yeah, don't half bake it. Build a world class light rail system by grade separating the tram line at major points of congestion.
kittykat over 4 years ago
I think its a great idea but why stop at Kingsford - it should at least go to Maroubra Junction and La Perouse.
Sim over 4 years ago
Agree this is a good start but it needs to reduce travel time from our suburbs to the city to be successful. The light rail should have dedicated lanes and not get tied up in the traffic particularly along Anzac parade and near ED entries and exits. It should have enough carriages so everyone can get on not like current buses where Kensington residents often can't get on buses because they're full. Additional road space should be built to accommodate the light rail, not merely use existing roads which are already highly congested with traffic.
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
Dig up Anzac and bury a tunnel under it. Significantly cheaper than boring a tunnel and will mean that the tram can avoid traffic completely. In Vancouver the cost of building the cut-and-cover tunnel for the Canada line (built in 2009) was around $100 million a kilometre in today's dollars - it should be feasible to bury a tunnel under Anzac Pde between Alison Road and UNSW for a few hundred million and actually make the tram useful. We would still have to put the tram through the streets of Surry Hills because you couldn't put a cut-and-cover tunnel there and boring a tunnel is too damn expensive but the journey times could be reduced if we blocked off the tram streets from traffic completely. In Surry Hills this should be doable as long as the tram only runs on the smaller back streets and lanes and it would actually really fit in with the character and attitude of Surry Hills.
judyh over 4 years ago
Love it - imaging to go to the opera house on tram- it will be much steadier than bus. I wonder if they will running as frequent as buses?
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
Well no. Currently State Govt says 200-220 Circular Quay buses an hour in peak times will be cut to max of 30 trams via Central.Actually cuts passenger carrying capacity if you do the maths (using the figures supplied by the State Govt on their own Myths page - oops own goal by planners!).
jacko777 over 4 years ago
Must go at least as far as Maroubra Junction, given the amount of unit development that has/is occuring there, otherwise commuters will have to change from a tram to a bus at UNSW which will discourage them from using public transport.
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
State Govt has said all off buses at Randwick or Kingsford. So queue for bus at Coogee, get of and queue at Randwick to take longer from Randwick to Circular Quay than it takes the 373 currently - does not sound so good does it?
dcf over 4 years ago
Anything to ease the congestion on the buses. Please extend it to Maroubra beach and on to LaPer next too!
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
Yes ease congestion but buses are only 1% of traffic in the area in peak times (State Govt Transport report). Also journey times will be slower and we lose most parking along the route as well as reduce Anzac Parade from two traffic lanes to one as it takes 2 lanes for tram lines and two lanes at the approach to and including the tram stop for the platforms.One traffic accident and Anzac Parade stops moving.One car hit by a tram and both public and private transport stops moving - that was why trams were taken out in the 60s and buses put in. When a serious injury or fatality (even suicide) then the trams stopped running = no public transport for extended periods. The bus was the so called ideal solution as it could pull out from around the accident, even be rerouted around the block if necessary. Trams are stuck.Slower journey, longer queues, greater cost and more pollution does not seem a goo idea
SoniaK over 4 years ago
Will the buses from La Perouse through Maroubra, Matraville and Coogee still go all the way to the city? All will commuters have to get off and get on the light rail, then get off at Central and get on another bus or train to go the city?
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
No, State Govt says all off at Kingsford or Randwick - they're cutting 220 buses an hour in peak times from going to Circular Quay.So not only will it be slower than buses, have less capacity but require two fares and cost most parking and four traffic lanes and eliminate all right turn lanes.You lose four lanes as 2 for tram lines and two for tram stops. As Anzac Pde from Kingsford to Doncaster is only 4 traffic lanes and two parking currently it has to become only ONE TRAFFIC LANE each way and no parking NOR bus stops.
what almost 4 years ago
By time it's finished we'll have the integrated transport ticket other cities have had for decades. BUT that will be expensive - how else will the tram be paid for?
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
An integrated transport ticket has been trialled previously in Sydney. The one in London (Oyster card) is a disaster with the machines breaking down daily and putting on the maximum charge. It has gotten so bad that since about 2009 there are queues of people going directly to queue a second time to ensure they have not been over charged. If you don't get it fixed (if you can find station staff) then you have to ring a timed/cost phone number and then wait up to 21 days to get it back. Yes some systems work and others don't - in NSW which one do you think we will end up with? After all the cost of laying track in NSW is 4 to 16 times more expensive than other states in Australia (including on green fields sites - literally on cleared farm land!).
rosscomac over 4 years ago
I think this is a great idea. There is a steep section at the top of Wansey road that could be difficult for a tram to ascend however I'm sure there are knowledgeable people who have been consulted regarding thisI'm sure in the future it can be extended further south to Maroubra junction however this first section needs to be implemented first or that will never happenI don't think extending the heavy rail south from bondi junction to Randwick is feasible due to the cost of tunnelling and also I believe going further south would require the train to run overland again as the rock underlying the Maroubra area is not suitable for tunnels.
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
Good point about the steepness (or grade) as it is also a safety issue especially in heavy rain. The absolute max grade for light rail (see State Govt operation manual or manufacturer sites) is 8 degrees with 7 degrees being the preferred max (slight more safety = less chance of sliding out of control).That is why the route set aside until the late 1970s before being sold off by RCC and State Govt had it leaving Alison at Cowper St and running diagonally to the Belmore Rd and Alison Rd intersection. Wansey Rd and High St would seem more than 8 degree grades.Also why is there a stop at the corner of Wansey and Alison? There is no bus stop near by and no large population centre given there is going to be a stop at the Centennial Park/Alison Rd intersection (for the Racecourse) and another at the top of Wansey & High St. Is it in preparation for high rise being put on the racecourse at that corner?
Alan over 4 years ago
Well, I just feel I don't have a brain when I am talking about it, and now is end of year 2012!Light Rail, or above ground Rail, sounds last centry style. It is just another NBN, wasting our money, but maybe someone else' pocket smiling who can get the contract and who relate those.... or might reduce unemployment rate for very short period.Light Rail, it just re-occupa the space from other transport user. It would not reduce a lot heavey traffic. Or if does help, might only five to ten years benefit, what happen to after fifteen years? We start to talking about subway or something else.Can we plan something which can benefit thirty or fifty years or even longer to our city - like Sydney Habour Bridge.
interwebb over 4 years ago
It is a good start but it should go all of the way to La Perouse like it did in the 1960's.
Gour Sen over 4 years ago
The route appears to be good. Is there any possibility to extend the route from Randwick to Coogee?
johnl over 4 years ago
concern about rouet through Surry Hills, already congested with inappropriately placed bikeways, which by reducing parking has reduced local small business. Will any homes be affected, or are we proposing tunnels under devonshire street, and houses, apartment blocks?
mjog over 4 years ago
Actually, small businesses benefit from the cycleways. There is a minor loss of car parking in the short term, but in the long term by encouraging people to ride, businesses become more accessible for people in the local neighbourhood - after all, if you ride somewhere, you no longer need to find a park.
johnl over 4 years ago
Removed by moderator - the comment failed to respect other users. Please refer to the moderation rules.
P.B. over 4 years ago
I believe that the extention of the heavy rail from Bondi Junction would be a far better option. There are over 34000 movements ( and increasing) to & from the university/hospital & heavy rail would handle this much better & quicker without the inherent problems of merging people & road transport.Light rail is a very poor secondary choice
Selin about 4 years ago
I agree lets plan for 100 years ahead and build heavy rail from Bondi Junction to the UNSW and POW Hospital for now. Put a stop to this stop gap light rail solution.
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
Light rail doesn't have to be a poor secondary choice if the government were to consider forking out the money to run the tram in a cut and cover tunnel in sections where there is no median to put the tram (Anzac Pde south of the Alison Rd intersection up to the Kingsford roundabout)
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
Why has there been no discussion about heavy rail on the only 8% capacity used line to Port Botany that links into the City Rail network between Redfern & Rockdale? It would actually be cheaper to run a spur up Foreshore Rd, through the housing commission and crown land from Bunnerong Rd to Anzac parade and then along the median strip to Kingsford.Complete the Eastern Suburbs Rail (with this section or possible linkage running underground along Avoca St) and traffic would not have to be crammed into Central (already over-crowded) but could come directly to area from South and South West avoiding the Central bottleneck. Any transport planner will admit that a circular system is 2-4 times more efficient (greater capacity & cheaper operation) than an out and back system as the total distance to travel is reduced and the bottlenecks also reduced.Using the same cut & cover methods that built Museum and St James there would be virtually no road closures as the median strip width is sufficient for construction activity. The only road closures would be the occasional cross road from one side of Anzac Pde to the other - one block at a time. Probably not enough of a mark-up for the consultants I suppose.Reply Agree (0) Disagree (0) Alert moderator
jbinoz over 4 years ago
While I completelt endorse the light rail project, I am in the inenviable position of living at the bottom of Devonshire Street -- so great idea but will I loose my home. How light rail traverses Eastern Distributor has not been addressed - if its under, then the gradient will be extreme, if its over ground, then I loose my home.
GooseyLucyLoo over 4 years ago
Awesome can't wait for a better route to the city! Bring it on and extend it to make a loop, and even taking in a beach or two would be beneficial.Hope the ticket price is reasonable, and works with the bus ticket system.
John Bonsing about 4 years ago
The purpose of using a tram system once again is worth considering from the point of view of the designated Major trip generators: it is about getting people to the SCG, to the Races and to UNSW, and away again, but not their cars; The 891 sardine tins to UNSW will generate the bread and butter revenue, with a little dignity thrown in for good measure, but the sports attractors will be provided with a real get-in-get-out solution: in this regard the ridiculous traffic jams can be reduced and that improves our quality of life. This first re-build of the tramways will work on that basis and makes sense on that basis. People in, without their cars.Development of the tramway's overall system can then proceed with the thought of looking at the other attractors, and that would be the beaches: the bountiful supply of people rolling off the 373 on the weekends converts to revenue to the local businesses. So if it is simple to attract people as far as High Cross on weekends knowing a flow of shuttles go down to the beaches on a sigle ticket, more money will flow into the tramway, and to the local economy.From the point of view of use of the trams by Randwick city residents to go into the city, the swapping of an X7X with the tram trip seems complicated: the offering at present is excellent already - but as time goes by and the tram goes further south, on the back of the success of the initial build, and as the bus system transforms to its modular system, and as ticketing is finally sorted, then it will present itself as a viable mass transit out of the area in the mornings. But first things first - get the people and their cash in to Randwick City - we have good plans to make use of that revenue - but get them to leave their cars somewhere else. Get them to use the tram.
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
You mention the 891 sardine tins - buses seat 3/4 and have 1/4 standing but light rail is 1/4 seated and 3/4 standing = more sardine tinlike. Also the State Govt web site puts in black & white that trams will be 2 minutes apart by Circular Quay = 30 per hour, and trams =3 to 4 buses.So the trams will only provide capacity = 90-120 buses per hour in peak times BUT State Govt says they will cut 220 buses per hour in peak times from entering the City (not 110 in and 110 out but 220 in. Also UNSW buses go to Central not Circular Quay so that's an additional 75 buses per hour in peak that's to be cut. Sounds like people will have to be hanging on the sides of the trams and on the roof between the high voltage wires.Also they take out 4 lanes from Anzac Parade (2 for tram lines and 2 for platforms (see State Govt specs) so there will be no more right turn lanes on Anzac Parade nor ANY PARKING nor any bus stops since Anzac Parade from Kingsford to Doncaster is 4 traffic lanes and 2 parking or turning lanes. So one car turning will stop Anzac Parade flowing.Result = worse congestion, slower public transport travel times, more cost & pollution and LOWER CAPACITYWhy are they doing this? Will this end up another $500m cancelled mess like the Metro Plan (which actually did add substantial capacity, faster travel times and significantly less congestion due to being underground).Why has there been no discussion about heavy rail on the only 8% capacity used line to Port Botany that links into the City Rail network between Redfern & Rockdale? It would actually be cheaper to run a spur up Foreshore Rd, through the housing commission and crown land from Bunnerong Rd to Anzac parade and then along the median strip to Kingsford.Using the same cut & cover methods that built Museum and St James there would be virtually no road closures as the median strip width is sufficient for construction activity. The only road closures would be the occasional cross road from one side of Anzac Pde to the other - one block at a time. Probably not enough of a mark-up for the consultants I suppose.
jpmontesinos about 4 years ago
great route. great outcome for randwick. i do not have any issue with route.now, while there is time to dicuss implications, these are mine:belmore road must be converted to tram only. no cars, no buses, no taxis.coogee bay road (between brook and arden) ditto.belmore road should have more CCTV.all these suggestions will lead to be as the CITY in the eastern suburbs.thanks for asking.
John Bonsing about 4 years ago
For: belmore road must be converted to tram only. no cars, no buses, no taxis. - Belmore may be guided by George St's transformation and based on the following may be effective as city-bound one way trams on Belmore itself : If the tramway from city up Alison went right at Botany (perhaps, rather than Wansey) to drop off Upper campus UNSW, left up High for PoW complex passengers then left into Belmore city bound one way going left down Alison. Idea is looped one way tram route through Randwick, being two way on Alison just as it widens. Randwick-bound would be heavily used to upper UNSW stp at cnr Botany and High, and once past the Hospital complex, would immediately be again heavily used city bound a.m, just as are the X73/X77 buses now. In p.m. peak, city to Randwick passengers would arrive just after peak exit from UNSW via Randwick (quicker than current passage down High and onto Anzac).For: coogee bay road (between brook and arden) - Maybe between Vicar and Arden. This invokes a malling effect, and perhaps even the concept of Whale St Mall invoking the original name of the street; a remnant rosette from the old tramway still can be viewed on cnr CBR and Arden, its companion up on Havelock. The implied route from Belmore down Coogee Bay road makes sense, based on current design and grade, with care needed for Coogee Public and St Brigids Schools. A simple continuation onward from High Cross and simple to add when ready. Such a line would be heavily used by passengers who currently use the X73/74 buses.
stevafran about 4 years ago
Current 891 route in the afternoon takes the bus from Gate 9 UNSW High St down to Alison Road via Wansey St. The odd driver decides for some reason to take it via High St and Anzac Pde. This will add an additional 5 minutes to journey time.
R-L over 3 years ago
You probably don't have an issue with the route because you do not live right on it and will therefore not have to live with the terrible noise...
cscott about 4 years ago
Fantastic! All it needs is a ticketing system that allows easy access to the tram (they've got it perfected in Singapore) and dedicated tram lanes so red lights are bypassed or reduced. Let's incorporate this improvement in public transport into the bigger picture and allow bicycles into the 'fast lane' with the trams so we can reduce car traffic from the Eastern Suburbs.
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
On a blank slate what you suggest would work but in an existing area it fails.Firstly you lose all turning bays (such as Anzac & High St, Anzac & Doncaster, Anzac & Barker etc) so turning traffic stops the flow of the only remaining single traffic lane on Anzac Parade.The tram stop takes out 4 lanes - 2 for the trams (1 lane each way wider than road lane) and for the two platforms. So at the UNSW stop you either lose all parking and NO MORE BUS STOPS on Anzac Parade or you only have one traffic lane which comes to a stand still if a car wants to turn right (say into High St).But the top of High St from Botany to Belmore will lose all parking and bus stops as it is only one lane each way at present which will be taken up by the tram so no more bus routes on High St (400 or 357 etc). Given that area is to become high rise providing as little as 0.5 car spaces per unit what will happen?
Huffy about 4 years ago
why not avoid the ugliness of poles and wires. Technology exists to run lightrail and buses on fuel cell /battery elctric vehicles. The cost to construct the route is much cheaper without all the poles and wires and the environment is not cluttered.
immanuel_aj almost 4 years ago
I think the way the technology works is to have batteries on the vehicles that can wirelessly charge at each stop that they make. While it's not certain whether the cost would be cheaper, it's definitely something that should be looked into as a possible solution!
mw2 about 4 years ago
Interestingly an article in todays Telegraph indicates a journey time between Randwick and the CBD of 39 minuteshttp://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/a-heavy-price-to-pay-for-the-light-rail-revolution/story-e6freuy9-1226550708529 Whereas current busses according to www.131500.com takes 30 mins or less! (eg royal randwick to wynyard)I think there is an issue here that the NSW Government needs to consider prior to committing to the propsal in its current state.
Brendan Johnson about 4 years ago
The tram will be slower than the current bus routes because it has to CRAWL through Surry Hills and is effectively an all-stops service (no such thing as an express tram). Once the tram is put into place road lanes will be reduced and the existing bus services will slow down too. Please, please, please consider putting the tram in a tunnel or in some other configuration to reduce travel times and congestion! There's no point in spending $1.6 billion on a red herring that will INCREASE commute times.
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
Public transport is supposed to provide faster, less congested travel solutions - this does not. Travel times are longer than the current bus system and the Gov's own web site proudly boasts its capacity AS LESS THAN THE BUSES it will replace - going slower and costing more.It actually adds to congestion by taking out 4 lanes of road where there is a stop - so at Anzac Pde at UNSW you lose 7m for the two tram lines and 7-8m for the two platforms, you also lose ALL PARKING and ALL Turning bays on Anzac Parade. Unless you also lose all car parking the entire length of Anzac Parade from Kensington to Kingsford then there can only be one traffic lane compared with the current two.Great result -more congestion - slower travel times -more expense (having to change from bus to tram & pay two separate fares - admitted in the FAQ section on NSW site)
fugle almost 4 years ago
I have never travelled to the city in under 40 minutes on an express bus from Randwick. Normal buses are even slower at peak times. The bus timetable is a work of fiction developed on a holiday weekend. The tram will bypass the clogged traffic because it will be on a separate track and not sharing the road with cars. The figures quoted here are extremely misleading and take the worst scenario for trams and compare it with the best for buses.
jabberwocky about 4 years ago
I totally support a light rail but why do both lines go so close together, essentially both servicing the hospital/racecourse/university area? Why not have the eastern most line going around the top of Centennial Park and down York Road so that you can draw the enormous volume of local residents looking to commute to the city from Queens Park/North Randwick and the Randwick/Prince of Wales area? It seems absurd that the proposal avoids a major residential area of the eastern suburbs?
what almost 4 years ago
Plenty of comments about extending to Maroubra Junction and beyond. Surely 'stage 1' could have the Randwick & Kingsford branches meet up again on Anzac Parade and onto Maroubra? The Randwick branch just needs to continue along Avoca Street. This is needed if the Inglis rezoning application is to proceed.
what almost 4 years ago
Should have also asked where the trams will 'layover' (time between arriving at the end of the line and departing again) ?In Coogee, half the beachfront is given over to buses on Arden Street. Where's the space at High Cross Reserve Randwick?At Circular Quay, all of Alfred Street is given over to buses and buses also wait on surrounding streets. Buses are flexible in this manner, but trams are not.
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
Similar issue, if there are to be (at peak times to Circular Quay) a tram every 2 minutes and it takes 39 minutes in and out (if not delayed by a disabled passenger or less mobile passenger getting off) then that needs 39 trams (plus some spares for maintenance and down time etc). Where will 40+ trams be housed?There is not enough room at the Kingsford roundabout which RCC rezoned from public open space to commercial 8 storey high rise in 2012 (joint Green/Liberal majority vote). Similarly if the current public open space of High Cross Park (Randwick) destined to be lost totally? Even including the area of each it still comes up short by about 10,000 sqm at least.In 2012 many parking spaces were removed at Kingsford to add another lane approaching the roundabout from the south. Will all the current parking south of the roundabout (opposite Souths Juniors) get taken over for a tram parking area? Who knows the proposal is light on details but long on rhetoric.
fugle almost 4 years ago
A great start apart from the problem at the end of Devonshire Street. Consideration should now be given to extending it to Coogee and Maroubra Beaches as well as Le Perouse. Don't leave the job half done. After all, most people visiting the area in summer want to go to the beach not visit the shopping temples.A couple of points to be considered -The tram must be separated physically from the road traffic so it is not affected by slow commuter traffic. This is where Devonshire St becomes a problem. There is no point having a tram service if it has to share the road with cars.The service should have trams running at 5 minute intervals - less during peak periods.There must be a double (up and down) track laid on every route to allow tram movements in both directions simultaneously.The large buses can be replaced with smaller ones that run more frequently, visit places presently not on a bus route and deposit people at the nearest tram station.There must be a ticketing system in place that allows people to move from the connecting bus to the tram without having to pay again. One that allows travel on any form of transport within a 2 hour period would be a good start.
immanuel_aj almost 4 years ago
I agree that Devonshire St. is rather crowded at the moment. It has four lanes, but two of the lanes are used for parking. The tram would definitely take up the existing two lanes. Which means the two lanes for parking must become 24 hour clearways instead.We do already have a ticketing system that allows multi-modal travel. It's called the MyMulti. Unlimited travel anywhere from a week to a year.But I don't think tickets that count by the hour are a good idea. For starters, if someone buys a ticket and misses a connecting trip by a few minutes, they'll have to get a new ticket. Anyone buying a ticket for a 30 minute journey would be paying more than they need for that trip. It also makes pricing rather confusing for the passenger since they would have to deal with a huge bracket of prices to choose from, starting from 2 hours up to a day, by your example. It's also something that passengers aren't used to since they're used to ticket pricing by distance, not by time.The contactless Opal card that will be introduced to ferries would be good since these cards speed up ticketing and prevents people from scamming the system (most of the time). If it's similar to the system in Brisbane you could even top up the card online and set up for and auto-top up when it gets low. No more queues on Monday morning to get a new ticket! (I've seen the queues at Central station on a Monday morning).
InfrastructureBeforeTowers almost 4 years ago
WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF? Inconvenient truth perhaps?I rang the special "information" line phone number on April 19 and spoke with a lady who was extremely helpful but turned out to be a modern day "Sgt Shultz".Of the 30+ questions I asked - she knew nothing. Not one could she answer, not even the length of the proposed trams.She did say that once I had given her both my phone number and email address that I would be contacted within 48 hours by a member of the 'project team who will be able to answer all your questions'.That was April 19. Today is May 16 - tomorrow will be 28 days since I rang and STILL NO ANSWERS.Questions such as will all parking be removed from High St between Wansey Rd and Avoca St +/or will it be closed to traffic other than emergency vehicles?How many additional sets of traffic lights are installed to provide the journey times published? At least (A) Wansey & Alison Rd (B) Wansey & High St (C) Anzac Pde & Moore Park for tram crossing.What changes are proposed (in the published journey times) to traffic light phasing and length of wait for (A) Trams (B) Other traffic.Where will the 40+ sets of trams be housed when not in use?What are the proposed hours of operation?Still waiting...
PatrickJL over 3 years ago
This light rail should have been in place years ago.But, how are people to get to it and if they drive to it where will they park their cars.Some years ago I was at a series of Council run workshops. The idea came up, from me, that the council should run a series of small free buses constantly driving along set routes picking up and delivering residents.Such a facility could now add to its dimensions the delivery and pick-up of passengers to the light rail terminals.It is fine to have the light rail, but the community would be more fully served were it part of an integrated public transport system covering the whole council area.
NthRandwickRes over 3 years ago
I support the light rail but my feeling is that everything needs to be done, that can be done, in the planning stages to maximise its success and minimise any bottle-necks/congestion. We want a fantastic outcome afterall - not another monorail.The system needs to be more reliable, more frequent, and able to accommodate a greater capacity of people than the sum total of the current bus routes it will replace. There also needs to be a solution for getting people to and from the terminals where those bus routes now extend in all directions - Maroubra, Coogee, Bronte, Bondi Junction etc. I don't think the terminal locations chosen are at all spacious enough to accommodate bus/light rail interchanges all along the way. My suggestion therefore is bike storage! There are LOADS of people in the east that ride bikes and the light rail will reach a far greater catchment of people if they can easily store (lockable and not ridiculously expensive either! Free would be good) their bikes at the terminal. People who live further than a comfortable walk from the terminal are no going to chose the light rail over a bus that goes nearer their house, or indeed, god forbid, their car. This project needs to be thought through end-to-end, bus route by bus route, terminal by terminal to get the best result.
Gmc over 3 years ago
Light rail can be a useful form of public transport provided it has its own route off major roads. Unfortunately, past governments have sold off various transport corridors through the east ideal for a light rail network. To construct light rail along Anzac Parade is madness. The result will be gridlock from the time construction commences for a generation. Parking will be lost for business forever and utilisation limited. Ultimately a future government will realise the eastern suburbs does not benefit from light rail and remove it. What a waste of money. If the government wanted to resolve the transport problems in the eastern suburbs, it would invest in finalising the eastern suburbs railway line with stations at Charing Cross, Frenchmans Road, Randwick, Prince of Wales Hospital/University of NSW, Kingsford, Pagewood/ Maroubra and finishing the loop by connecting to the rail at Botany. Arguably an off route to Bondi should be constructed. I understand the tunnelling for this work was completed to about Charing Cross before funding on the project ceased. With trains looping around in opposite directions, and with integrated bus services linked to the various train stations, you create a mass transport system that would reduce congestion and have capacity to meet the current and future population needs of the east to allow it to link to work, educational and social destinations about Sydney without the need to drive. No doubt light rail construction is cheaper than rail. However it is short sighted approach, typical of governments in NSW for decades. According to its own capacity assessment it will be at capacity on completion. It reminds me of the government limiting the M5 tunnels to only 2 lanes each way only for it to become a car park each peak hour from the time it was completed. Light rail will not reduce congestion, will render Anzac Parade and other roads useless, will damage business and ultimately will be dug up as a thought bubble poorly conceived. Please fix our transport problems. Don't waste money on madness. Use the money to provide long term integrated transport solutions for the east.
MRTom over 3 years ago
This is a great idea. It should have been done years ago.The Kingsford branch should extend out to at least Maroubra Junction. It does not make sense to stop at Churchills Roundabout. Anzac Parade has plenty of room in the middle of the road, that is currently used as car parks, from there all the way down to Maroubra Junction. It would not cost much more to do it and would not require closing off one side of the road whilst being constructed.I also think that it should be extended from Maroubra Junction down Fitzgerald Avenue to Maroubra beach again it's a very wide road so there's room to do it. It could be the catalyst to develop the whole of the headland south of the beach and rejuvenate the whole area.